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Author Topic: STP - Victims of the Loudness War  (Read 10513 times)

musica

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Re: STP - Victims of the Loudness War
« Reply #30 on: June 01, 2010, 01:39:30 AM »
Quote from: "John"
I'd argue that outside of midi/sequencing support (where Audition is just terrible), it's just as good at anything else when it comes to recording and mixing multi-track audio.  It's all preference at that point.  There is a decent amount of software these days that is more than capable of turning out a high-quality product as long as the person operating it knows a few things and isn't deaf.  I'd also argue Auditions spectral tools are better than almost anything else.

Yes, if you have decent hardware going in.  An 8 channel mixer going into a soundcard seems like it would be useful only for mono or stereo two-track, rather than actual 8 track multi-track.  You could record into the software one track at a time and built a multi-track performance that way, but you really wouldn't be able to record a band or even use multiple mics on an acoustic guitar (and run them to individual tracks). The software itself is decent, but it's still something that most people get as entry-level software... I'm not dissing it because of that, as I have it myself, but I also wouldn't be criticizing someone for using Audacity either.  As a side note, you're 100 percent correct about the person operating it knowing a few things.  That is absolutely the key, no matter what software they're using.  The opposite is also true.  I've seen a lot of people who didn't really know much, and they all seemed to be using similar programs and achieving horrible results using the basic default settings on all the effects and functions.
 
Quote from: "John"
Quote from: "musica"
PCs generally are not as stable as Macs for pro-level production...
Ehhhh.  I think this is mostly bullshit at this point.  Old silly arguments die hard, I guess.  Nobody is using Windows 95 any more.  The endless Mac vs. PC debate is not worth the time.  Use what you want.  Results are all that matters.

Probably so.  I guess it depends what you're running.  I'm not a Mac fan either but if I ran Pro Tools, I would probably go with a Mac as I've seen Windows encounter too many errors on even recent operating systems, and I'm not too sure the bugs have been worked out of the new one yet.   I agree, it's all about results.  We each have our own preferences at how we can most effectively and efficiently reach those results, as you said.

Quote from: "John"
Quote from: "musica"
Audition has a lot of other nice features as well, but I don't really use them as I prefer doing more detailed work using other software.
And that's a preference.  At the end of the day, many many programs can open various audio files/formats, and let you edit them, analyze them, mix them together, and/or apply various effects.

Yes, you're right.  Audacity serves its purpose in that respect.  My point was it's not a whole lot lower on the totem pole than Audition in terms of its target audience (consumer vs. pro), but someone who knows what they're doing could get "pro" results from either one.  But someone who knew what they were doing would probably have a broader range of options available if needed as well, in order to make a more educated choice.  All in all, I can agree with your points.  My point was that Audacity works fine for looking at a track's volume level, and it offers a lot of the basic functions that Audition offers.

EyesOfDisarray

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Re: STP - Victims of the Loudness War
« Reply #31 on: June 01, 2010, 02:27:19 AM »
Quote from: "musica"
Quote from: "John"
Quote from: "musica"
PCs generally are not as stable as Macs for pro-level production...
Ehhhh.  I think this is mostly bullshit at this point.  Old silly arguments die hard, I guess.  Nobody is using Windows 95 any more.  The endless Mac vs. PC debate is not worth the time.  Use what you want.  Results are all that matters.

Probably so.  I guess it depends what you're running.  I'm not a Mac fan either but if I ran Pro Tools, I would probably go with a Mac as I've seen Windows encounter too many errors on even recent operating systems, and I'm not too sure the bugs have been worked out of the new one yet.

As you've alluded to, I think the biggest issue nowadays is what software (and sometimes hardware) you're using it for. If you like Audition, you need a PC because it's still Windows-only.

I'm studying to be a composer, and I've run across some "minor issues" with Digital Performer and Logic in Windows.  ;)  So for me, it has to be Mac.

Quetzal

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Re: STP - Victims of the Loudness War
« Reply #32 on: June 01, 2010, 04:33:38 AM »
Am I the only one that has noticed a major problem with the chorus of 'Take a Load Off?'  It sounds extremely compressed, like it's being played through RealAudio or something.  If you pay attention you should be able to easily distinguish the hissing sound.  I'm guessing that somebody dropped the ball big time during the mix/master process.  It's a great song, but the crappy mix of the chorus makes it almost unbearable to listen to.
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Eighth Caged Tiger

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Re: STP - Victims of the Loudness War
« Reply #33 on: June 01, 2010, 05:20:28 AM »
It's definitely a little too squeezed, but I haven't heard the constant clipping and general horrible quality of Death Magnetic.

Mechstar

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Re: STP - Victims of the Loudness War
« Reply #34 on: June 01, 2010, 05:28:12 AM »
Very fascinating post, I had no idea about this.
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John

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Re: STP - Victims of the Loudness War
« Reply #35 on: June 01, 2010, 07:19:08 AM »
Quote from: "Quetzal"
Am I the only one that has noticed a major problem with the chorus of 'Take a Load Off?'  It sounds extremely compressed, like it's being played through RealAudio or something.  If you pay attention you should be able to easily distinguish the hissing sound.  I'm guessing that somebody dropped the ball big time during the mix/master process.  It's a great song, but the crappy mix of the chorus makes it almost unbearable to listen to.
It's an effect that they added to the chorus.  It's a very high-frequency "tinkling" sound.  I'm not exactly sure what they were going for here, to be honest.

I can tell you that it sounds "fine" if you have the CD (or any uncompressed version).  I can also tell you that those high-frequencies get mutilated by any AAC/MP3/etc. lossy-compression.  It makes the effect sound completely unintentional and "broken".

I'm afraid there is nothing you can do about it except to stop buying compressed music and/or get better listening equipment.  I highly recommend that anyway.

lovemachine97

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Re: STP - Victims of the Loudness War
« Reply #36 on: June 01, 2010, 07:55:57 AM »
One of the reasons I liked Chinese Democracy was the dynamic range.  I can only describe to people that when you have dynamic range, the sound is "3-dimensional".

Bob Ludwig mastered Chinese Democracy, and he wrote a blog about his final 2-track master at gatewaymastering.com (http://gatewaymastering.com/gateway_LoudnessWars.asp)

Here's what he had to say:

Dynamics and quality win the Loudness Wars

Tuesday, November 25, 2008

from Bob Ludwig:

On Sunday, November 23rd the new Guns ‘N Roses record Chinese Democracy was finally released after many years of waiting and many millions spent making it. 14 different recording studios are credited. I was thrilled to have been chosen to master the album.

In October, when I first heard some of final mixes which were incredibly multi-layered and dense, I was surprised by two things: The mixes were so finally honed that doing the smallest move sounded like I had done a lot and also that adding the typical amount of compression used in mastering these days took the life and musicality out of the recordings in a big way.

The trial disc I submitted to the producers had 3 versions: The one I personally liked had no compression that was used just for loudness, only compression that was needed for great sounding rock and roll. Then, knowing how competitive everything is these days, I made two more masterings, one with more compression and another with yet more compression, but even the loudest one wasn’t remotely as loud as some recent CDs. Hoping that at least one of these would satisfy Axl and Caram Costanzo, the co-producers of the record, I was floored when I heard they decided to go with my full dynamics version and the loudness-for-loudness-sake versions be damned.

I think the fan and press backlash against the recent heavily compressed recordings finally set the context for someone to take a stand and return to putting music and dynamics above shear level.

The dynamics vs. volume trade-offs include the act of simply turning your playback volume clockwise a little. True, when shopping the iTunes store your song may not blast out as loudly as other songs. When trying to impress the radio station PD it may be an issue if you don’t have the guaranteed attention this record deserves, however level on the radio broadcast is NOT an issue. As I have been lecturing to people for years, the radio stations are all in competition with each other and they all have devices to make loud things soft and soft things loud and indeed, I heard a critic’s review of Chinese Democracy on NPR and the song examples they played screamed over my portable radio. Even with the radio station compression you can still hear detail in the car… amazing!

I’m hoping that Chinese Democracy will mark the beginning of people returning to sane levels and musicality triumphing over distortion and grunge. I have already seen a new awareness and appreciation for quality from some other producers, I pray it is the end of the level wars.


This topic was debated heavily at the VHforums (Van Halen), and the people that had trouble getting the concept, I asked them to listen to, back to back, You Got No Right and Street of Dreams.  The latter is a perfect example of how the dynamics of a record can do wonders for the listening experience.  Had You Got No Right been mastered the same way, Slash's percussive, string-muted strums just before the chorus would jump out of the speakers, as would the chorus, and so on.  Instead, YGNR is just flat-sounding in comparison.

Les Nessman

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Re: STP - Victims of the Loudness War
« Reply #37 on: March 20, 2013, 05:59:17 PM »
When I found this thread, I was thinking the same thing! Is it me or does No. 4 also sound like it is also a victim? I will read up on that also in the threads concerning that album. Core-Tiny Music... & SLDD all sound like they're mastered the same, but for some reason I hear a difference concerning No. 4 & of course S/T. Does anyone have an opinion on where to get the best sounding No. 4 and S/T from?

IMJ

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Re: STP - Victims of the Loudness War
« Reply #38 on: March 22, 2013, 04:19:45 PM »
When I found this thread, I was thinking the same thing! Is it me or does No. 4 also sound like it is also a victim? I will read up on that also in the threads concerning that album. Core-Tiny Music... & SLDD all sound like they're mastered the same, but for some reason I hear a difference concerning No. 4 & of course S/T. Does anyone have an opinion on where to get the best sounding No. 4 and S/T from?

I've argued for years that No. 4 needs a re-release with a new master that removes the distance between Weiland's vocals and the sound projection, and also gets rid of the cotton that was synthetically placed over the mics otherwise muffling the sound of that album.  It's almost as if each STP album had significant DNR applied to it more and more as each album progressed until SLDD which has some of the clearest production on it since Core.
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kurt34

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Re: STP - Victims of the Loudness War
« Reply #39 on: March 22, 2013, 06:20:29 PM »

foou33

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Re: STP - Victims of the Loudness War
« Reply #40 on: March 22, 2013, 08:27:48 PM »
it's too bad everything is mixed so poorly these days. i still think californication is the king of the loudness war, that album would be great if it wasn't so poorly done

The Action Girls

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Re: STP - Victims of the Loudness War
« Reply #41 on: October 09, 2013, 01:57:31 AM »
I bought this on iTunes when it came out and I have to say, it sounds pretty damn good for a compressed 256kbps AAC file. Now, if you go and convert it to 256kbps MP3... then you have problems.
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